Legislature(2005 - 2006)BUTROVICH 205

04/20/2006 01:30 PM Senate TRANSPORTATION


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01:37:41 PM Start
01:42:28 PM Pavement Rutting Problems in Anchorage Alaska
02:55:53 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ Pavement Rutting Research Project - TELECONFERENCED
Update and Presentation:
Jerry DesJarlais and Dr. Hulsey, UAF
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
            SENATE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                          
                         April 20, 2006                                                                                         
                           1:37 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator Charlie Huggins, Chair                                                                                                  
Senator John Cowdery, Vice Chair                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator Gene Therriault                                                                                                         
Senator Albert Kookesh                                                                                                          
Senator Hollis French                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative Carl Gatto                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Pavement rutting in Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
No previous committee action to consider.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
DR. J. LEROY HULSEY, Ph.D., P.E., S.E.                                                                                          
Associate Professor, Civil Engineering                                                                                          
Fairbanks, AK                                                                                                                   
POSITION STATEMENT: Discussed pavement rutting.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
GERALD J. DESJARLAIS                                                                                                            
Denali Materials                                                                                                                
3815 W. 40th Avenue A.                                                                                                          
Anchorage AK 99517                                                                                                              
POSITION STATEMENT: Discussed pavement rutting.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CARL GATTO                                                                                                       
State Capitol, Room 411                                                                                                         
Juneau, AK  99801-1182                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT: Discussed pavement rutting.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MICHAEL SAN ANGELO                                                                                                              
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities                                                                                
3132 Channel Dr.                                                                                                                
Juneau, AK  99801-7898                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT: Discussed pavement rutting.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CHARLIE  HUGGINS called the Senate  Transportation Standing                                                             
Committee meeting to order at 1:37:41  PM. Present at the call to                                                             
order  were Senator  John Cowdery  and  Senator Charlie  Huggins,                                                               
Chair.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
^ Pavement Rutting Problems in Anchorage Alaska                                                                                 
             PAVEMENT RUTTING IN ANCHORAGE, ALASKA                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
DR.  J. LEROY  HULSEY, Ph.D.,  P.E., S.E.,  University of  Alaska                                                               
Fairbanks,  said  he  is principal  on  a  state-funded  research                                                               
project  to investigate  pavement-rutting problems  in Anchorage,                                                               
Alaska.  He  outlined  the  steps   his  team  is  taking  toward                                                               
development  of a  testing plan  to evaluate  possible solutions,                                                               
and introduced  Gerald Desjarlais to present  their research plan                                                               
and preliminary findings.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:42:28 PM                                                                                                                    
GERALD  J.  DESJARLAIS,  President   of  Denali  Materials  Inc.,                                                               
presented slides from  a survey on pavement  rutting and stressed                                                               
that rutting  is contributing to  premature pavement  failure; it                                                               
is expensive,  a safety problem,  and a public  inconvenience. He                                                               
said that the scope of work  on his research grant request is to:                                                               
review  previous  work  by Alaska  Department  of  Transportation                                                               
(DOT),  solicit  data  from  other  states,  identify  causes  of                                                               
rutting,  test to  identify  rut-resistant  paving material,  and                                                               
analyze  data  to  develop appropriate  pavement  sections  using                                                               
those materials.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
He  explained that  there are  four possible  causes of  rutting:                                                               
Plastic  flow,   which  is  a   function  of  mixed   design  and                                                               
constructability, or  testing on the  job to ensure  the material                                                               
you  are  putting down  on  the  grade  truly reflects  what  was                                                               
designed  in  the  lab;  studded tire  wear;  base  and  sub-base                                                               
failures which cause the flexible  pavement to deflect; stripping                                                               
and raveling.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:44:28 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  DESJARLAIS  showed  a  slide   of  Tudor  Road  just  before                                                               
resurfacing  last  year, which  shows  no  evidence of  sub-grade                                                               
failure, just a  fairly typical example of plastic  flow in which                                                               
asphalt is flushed  to the surface. He noted  that the conditions                                                               
on Tudor  Road were typical of  what they found on  the other six                                                               
highways tested.  The sampling  locations used were Glenn Highway                                                               
at the  Muldoon exit, Diamond  Boulevard, Old Seward,  Tudor Road                                                               
at Tudor and  Burgaw, Gambol and East Thirteenth,  Benson and Old                                                               
Seward,  Burgaw and  East Sixth,  and the  new pavement  on Tudor                                                               
Road.  They took  core samples  in the  travel lanes  and between                                                               
them for comparison.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR COWDERY asked  if heavier vehicles have  a greater effect                                                               
on plastic flow.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS answered yes, that wheel loading is a big factor.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:46:28 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  HUGGINS   commented  that  one  of   the  discussions  the                                                               
legislature has had about the  transportation of pipe for the gas                                                               
pipeline, is that  moving it by truck would  overload and destroy                                                               
the road structure.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS  responded that weight  is a factor, but  the sub-                                                               
grade is not failing at the  test sites, so the state is building                                                               
good roads; it just has mix problems.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked how much  the rutting factor would be reduced                                                               
if they got the mix right.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:47:51 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS  recognized Representative  Carl Gatto  and invited                                                               
him to join the discussion.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS said that he has a  lot of slides and data on that                                                               
very question,  including some slides illustrating  that the vast                                                               
majority  of  flow occurs  in  the  top  lift. On  Glenn  Highway                                                               
however, the second  lift is deteriorating badly  and they aren't                                                               
sure  why. He  said that  a study  by Barter  and Johnson  (1996,                                                               
1997) reported that  Alaska spends $5 million  annually to repair                                                               
stud-related pavement  damage, but  they have not  found anything                                                               
that establishes studded tires are the cause.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  COWDERY asked  if the  mixes in  use today  have changed                                                               
much over the past ten years or so.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS  replied that they  are studying that now,  but he                                                               
believes they will find that mixes have changed a lot.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CARL GATTO  asked how much of the  asphalt laid in                                                               
the state of Alaska is made with Alaskan oil.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS  replied that almost  all of  it is now  made with                                                               
Alaskan oil.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked  if there is any  data comparing roads                                                               
that  were built  with asphalt  made from  foreign oil  and those                                                               
that  were built  using  Alaskan  oil. He  also  asked about  the                                                               
hardness of the rock that is used in the sub-grade.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS  said that  he would discuss  the hardness  of the                                                               
rock later, but that Alaskan  oil contains significant amounts of                                                               
paraffin, which might make softer asphalt.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:53:03 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  COWDERY said  he understands  that sweet  crude makes  a                                                               
better product  than North Slope  oil, but he isn't  sure whether                                                               
it is available. He also said that  he has talked to DOT about it                                                               
but his suggestions were not well received.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS  confirmed that Senator  Cowdery is  correct about                                                               
the superiority of crude oil in the  mix.  He said they have been                                                               
working  closely  with  Department   of  Transportation  on  this                                                               
project and  that both Newt  Bingham and  Mike San Angelo  of DOT                                                               
have been very cooperative and helpful.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
He  presented a  slide of  Glenn Highway  near the  Muldoon exit,                                                               
which illustrated pitting  in the road, and pointed  out that the                                                               
rocks  are not  ground down;  traffic  is picking  out the  fines                                                               
[fine, binding surface materials]  around them, allowing the rock                                                               
to come  out. Possibly using  harder aggregate and  larger stones                                                               
in the surface core could  slow this process. Alaska doesn't have                                                               
a lot  of large stone however,  so river gravel is  more commonly                                                               
used,  and the  harder aggregate  might not  help without  larger                                                               
surface stone.  Arizona is incorporating rubber  into the surface                                                               
core and  it's holding up very  well, so there are  other options                                                               
that might work.  This study  focuses on plastic flow because, of                                                               
the  sites they  have sampled,  only the  Glenn Highway  exhibits                                                               
this picking phenomenon.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:57:20 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  HUGGINS  commented  that  there is  a  major  variance  in                                                               
rutting along  the Glenn  Highway from one  area to  another, and                                                               
asked what Mr. Desjarlais attributes that to.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS  answered that  he thinks it  is due  to different                                                               
aggregates and different  mix designs. He noted that,  on the new                                                               
paving on Tudor  Road, they found tiny variations  in asphalt and                                                               
gradations, and one side is holding  up better than the other. He                                                               
thinks  the answer  might be  modified pavement  asphalt, perhaps                                                               
with more  polymers, or incorporating  rubber as they've  done in                                                               
Arizona, rather than using harder aggregate.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS  asked if Arizona  uses any recycled rubber  in the                                                               
asphalt.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS replied that all of  it is recycled. He added that                                                               
Alaska tried using  rubber in asphalt about 15 years  ago, but it                                                               
wasn't  very  successful  because   the  federal  government  was                                                               
mandating the amount  of rubber that had to  be incorporated into                                                               
the pavement  and there was  no control  over the type  of rubber                                                               
being used.  In Arizona, they are  using a pretty fine  mesh that                                                               
comes from grinding  off the outside of truck  tires, which yield                                                               
much better rubber than other types of tires.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:00:33 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR COWDERY  mentioned that California  has also  used rubber                                                               
in asphalt successfully.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO said  he heard  that California  has had  a                                                               
problem with oxidation in rubber  from passenger car tires, so he                                                               
thinks they've shifted to butyl rubber.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS replied that the  Manhole Adjustment Company, Inc.                                                               
in   Los   Angeles   California  provides   asphalt   rubber   to                                                               
contractors for  use in mixes and  has gotten the state  to write                                                               
specifications  requiring that  it  contain a  certain amount  of                                                               
tennis ball  rubber, which  might be a  factor in  oxidation. The                                                               
anti-oxidizing   agents  in   tires   are  actually   beneficial.                                                               
Approximately 60 percent of primary  roads in Arizona have a thin                                                               
layer of asphalt rubber surfacing,  and they have had spectacular                                                               
results.   He  remarked   that   asphalt   oxidizes  too,   which                                                               
contributes  to  failure,  especially   in  hot  countries.  Seal                                                               
coating is frequently used to combat it.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:03:00 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO  remarked  that  he heard  last  year  that                                                               
Michelin made a  tire called an Ice  tire, which is as  good as a                                                               
studded tire.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR COWDERY said  he owns Bridgestone tires  that are similar                                                               
to the Michelins and they are highly effective all-season tires.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO  added  that   they  are  not  aggressively                                                               
treaded so, compared  to studded tires, they have  less impact on                                                               
road wear.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:03:57 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. DESJARLAIS asked what the tires look like.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR COWDERY replied  that they look like  sawdust tires; they                                                               
are softer rubber and are self-cleating.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:04:47 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. DESJARLAIS said that George Way  P.E. in Arizona showed him a                                                               
slide presentation of  a badly damaged intersection at  1, 5, and                                                               
10  years after  paving  a portion  with a  one-inch  layer of  a                                                               
mixture  of 8-10  percent liquid  asphalt  containing 20  percent                                                               
rubber. The road  has continued to deteriorate, but  there is not                                                               
one  reflective crack  in  the rubber  asphalt  surface after  10                                                               
years.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HUGGINS  wondered if  there  is  a difference  in  braking                                                               
distance on a rubber asphalt surface.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS replied that he has  seen a video of trucks on wet                                                               
pavement and  the rubber  asphalt surface does  not throw  up the                                                               
rain; it seems to be flowing off.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HUGGINS asked  Mr. Desjarlais  to repeat  his overview  of                                                               
their research grant for Senator Cowdery.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS  said that  about two  years ago,  he and  John Lu                                                               
visited  the  civil  engineering  lab  at  University  of  Alaska                                                               
Fairbanks  (UAF)  and decided  to  use  it to  research  Alaska's                                                               
pavement rutting  problem. They obtained  a grant to UAF  for the                                                               
study and  have tried to  take a  fresh approach to  the problem,                                                               
focusing  on  the  actual  cause of  road  rutting,  rather  than                                                               
treatment of the symptoms.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:08:05 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  HULSEY said  that  Dr. Rad  did  a lot  of  the research  on                                                               
rubberized asphalt  in California for Manhole  Adjusters. He also                                                               
mentioned that  he, Dr. Rad,  and John  Lu obtained a  grant from                                                               
DOT to  compare traction  on Bridgestone  tires to  studded tires                                                               
and  were surprised  to find  that the  Bridgestone winter  tires                                                               
surpassed studded tires in tractability in almost every test.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:09:55 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  DESJARLAIS asked  Senator Cowdery  how much  his Bridgestone                                                               
ice tires cost.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR COWDERY could not remember.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DESJARLAIS reiterated  that studded  tires are  definitely a                                                               
factor in creating  road wear, although not as great  a factor as                                                               
they were previously thought to be.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said he assumed  that studded tires would be                                                               
more effective than ice tires on  wet asphalt once the tires have                                                               
locked.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HULSEY replied  that they  tested the  stopping distance  of                                                               
various  tires  on  the wet  runway  at  Fairbanks  International                                                               
Airport and did not find that to be true.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:11:55 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  COWDERY said  that might  be  due to  widespread use  of                                                               
antilock brakes in modern cars.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS showed a slide of  the cores from the Stone Matrix                                                               
Asphalt (SMA) surface  on Glenn Highway and pointed  out that SMA                                                               
is  fairly porous.  The  slides  show that  the  second lift  has                                                               
deteriorated almost  completely and the asphalt  has flushed off,                                                               
leaving uncoated  aggregate. He also showed  slides comparing the                                                               
depth of ruts  on the Glenn Highway starting at  200 ft. distance                                                               
from the Muldoon exit, up to  the exit itself.  Rutting is fairly                                                               
consistent at 70 mph, but as  traffic slows down nearer the exit,                                                               
the rutting becomes shallower. He  said this is the exact reverse                                                               
of what happens in plastic flow.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:13:55 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if that is studded tire wear.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS  replied yes, that  the high speed is  what causes                                                               
studded tire wear.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO  suggested  a   mechanism  for  the  trends                                                               
exhibited in the charts.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS  showed slides of  rutting caused by  plastic flow                                                               
on Dimond  Boulevard, starting at  a distance from  the stoplight                                                               
and increasing as traffic slows to a stop.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR COWDERY  said that  when Dimond  Boulevard was  paved two                                                               
years  ago, ripples  formed in  the road  within two  weeks after                                                               
paving was complete.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
2:15:54 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. DESJARLAIS noted that the  Stewart Highway did the same thing                                                               
when it was paved 6-8 years  ago. He presented a summary of their                                                               
preliminary  research  results  on  plastic  flow.  None  of  the                                                               
sampled sites showed evidence of  sub-grade deflection or surface                                                               
raveling and,  of the six  sites tested  to date, only  the Glenn                                                               
Highway showed  any indication  that studded  tires might  be the                                                               
primary  contributor  to rutting.  They  are  not yet  sure  what                                                               
impact the  failed mix on the  second lift might have  on rutting                                                               
at this site. Testing on the  other five sites shows clearly that                                                               
rutting is the  result of plastic flow. Fortunately,  this can be                                                               
managed utilizing  the latest  technological developments  in mix                                                               
design adapted to Alaska's conditions.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:18:53 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  DESJARLAIS   presented  slides   and  information   from  an                                                               
extensive study  conducted in Colorado in  1992, which concluded,                                                               
"when  air voids  in the  wheel path  were less  than 3  percent,                                                               
there was a  high probability of rutting from plastic  flow."  He                                                               
explained that  a proper mix  design is one  in which there  is a                                                               
skeleton  of aggregate,  from the  largest to  the smallest,  and                                                               
stone-on-stone contact so that it  cannot compress. Each particle                                                               
is  then coated  with liquid  asphalt  to glue  it all  together,                                                               
which  creates  what  is called  "maximum  density."  At  maximum                                                               
density, there  should be four  percent air voids, or  open areas                                                               
remaining.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
He went  on to  say that  the structure of  a road  is sub-grade,                                                               
granular base, and surface layer  and most road rutting occurs on                                                               
the surface  layer.  If there  are excessive air voids,  it is an                                                               
unstable mix  that will deteriorate  and ravel.  Insufficient air                                                               
voids cause  plastic flow, which  is exacerbated by  the addition                                                               
of  too much  liquid asphalt.  He  said that  these results  have                                                               
caused engineers to rethink asphalt  composition. He compared the                                                               
Marshall Mix  Design, which accounts  for most of the  asphalt in                                                               
Alaska, to the  Simple Performance design, and  stressed that the                                                               
Marshall Mix  performance test cannot  predict the  durability of                                                               
pavement in  the lab.  The Simple Performance  test can  do that,                                                               
but the equipment required is very expensive.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:22:30 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO  asked about the susceptibility  of concrete                                                               
roads to studded tire damage.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DESJARLAIS said  that it  does occur  on concrete  roads and                                                               
they are  more subject to picking  than asphalt, but there  is no                                                               
plastic  flow.  He speculated  that  building  concrete roads  in                                                               
Alaska would  be prohibitively  expensive, particularly  with the                                                               
poor  sub-grades used  in  the state.  Concrete  can bridge  some                                                               
irregularity, but  Alaskan roads would  have to be  prepared just                                                               
as they are for asphalt, which is not necessary in the Lower 48.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO asked  if  anyone has  considered using  an                                                               
overlay fabric between the top lift and the next lift.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:25:18 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  DESJARLAIS said  that  he  has done  that  in Anchorage,  on                                                               
Arctic Boulevard. The purpose of  an overlay fabric is to prevent                                                               
reflective cracking  and it has proven  highly effective. Polymer                                                               
modified asphalt  does the same thing,  and many of the  roads in                                                               
Anchorage are surfaced with it.  Liquid asphalt has a Performance                                                               
Grade,  or  PG rating;  PG  52/28  means  that grade  of  asphalt                                                               
performs to  a certain level  between 52 and 28  degrees Celsius.                                                               
Because that  is the only  grade of asphalt available  in Alaska,                                                               
polymer  (styrene-butadiene-styrene [SBS])  is added  to make  it                                                               
more resilient in extreme temperatures.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO  asked if a driveway  has the same mix  as a                                                               
highway.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:27:45 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. DESJARLAIS  replied that  driveway mixes  are much  finer and                                                               
unstable  in general,  and  would not  be suitable  to  use on  a                                                               
highway.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
He  said that  with  regard to  design  vs. constructability  and                                                               
quality  control,  it is  important  to  realize that  laboratory                                                               
simulation  can  only sample  a  very,  very  small part  of  the                                                               
overall  quantity. It  will cost  the state  and the  contractors                                                               
money, but  it is  important to have  better quality  controls in                                                               
place in the plant and in the  field. He also said that the focus                                                               
has been on  things that are inconsequential; it  is important to                                                               
focus  on  the composition  of  the  blends. He  emphasized  that                                                               
process control is more important than composition testing.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DESJARLAIS'  next  slides   provided  a  comparison  of  the                                                               
percentage  of voids  in  different  layers of  the  old and  new                                                               
pavements on  Tudor road.   They illustrate  that the mix  on the                                                               
top lift  before re-paving was  down to .02 percent.  It probably                                                               
had four  percent voids  originally, but  it kept  compacting and                                                               
flowing,  until  there  were  virtually   no  voids  left.    The                                                               
westbound lanes of the new  pavement contain local aggregate; the                                                               
eastbound lanes  contain hard aggregate  with the  same broadband                                                               
mix  design as  that  on the  westbound lanes.  He  said that  he                                                               
assumes  the westbound  lanes  will  begin to  rut  within a  few                                                               
months  but  that  it  has  nothing  to  do  with  hard  or  soft                                                               
aggregate, but with the mix design.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:34:33 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO  suggested moving the stripe  on highways to                                                               
distribute wear and reduce rutting.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS  replied that it  is a thought. He  concluded that                                                               
plastic flow  is a major cause  of rutting due to  mix design and                                                               
techniques, inadequate  constructability and  inadequate testing.                                                               
He  again  stressed  that  process control  is  of  the  greatest                                                               
importance.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:37:12 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  DESJARLAIS  suggested  requiring  3-4  percent  polymer  for                                                               
roads, and making  testing a priority in that process  as well as                                                               
in the making of hot-mix asphalt.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:37:49 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR COWDERY  said that he  has observed that  contractors bid                                                               
on a  job based on the  specifications that are required,  not to                                                               
do the best possible job, which creates design flaws.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:39:14 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked what happens on runways.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DESJARLAIS  replied  that the  construction  of  runways  is                                                               
radically  different  from  the  construction  of  highways.  The                                                               
standards for runways are much higher.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO  asked whether the autobahns  are asphalt or                                                               
concrete.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DESJARLAIS  replied  that  most of  them  are  asphalt,  and                                                               
described the construction method used on that type of project.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:41:10 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  HUGGINS  asked  Mr.  Desjarlais  to  explain  de-icing  to                                                               
Representative Gatto,  particularly as it relates  to the bridges                                                               
in the MatSu.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS  said that he  has been consulting with  a company                                                               
that developed  a system to  prevent ice from forming  on bridges                                                               
and  tunnel  entrances and  exits.  There  is a  sensor  (peltier                                                               
device) set into  the pavement that detects moisture  on the road                                                               
and, when  the temperature drops  below 39 degrees  Fahrenheit, a                                                               
thermal electric heat  pump warms up to two  degrees Celsius over                                                               
freezing to  melt any ice or  snow off the road,  then cools down                                                               
to  as   much  as  25   degrees  Fahrenheit  below   the  surface                                                               
temperature of the road and  records the freeze-point of moisture                                                               
on the surface. Once the  freeze-point has been established, when                                                               
the temperature gets  within two degrees of that  point, an anti-                                                               
icing chemical is sprayed on  the bridge. This technology will be                                                               
used on the Knick River Bridges.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:45:12 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said  he heard that it  would be frightfully                                                               
expensive.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS replied that it  would only cost a million dollars                                                               
for the  main bridge over the  Knick River, both north  and south                                                               
spans, plus 200 feet on each side approaching the bridge.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR COWDERY remarked  that just after adding a  new runway at                                                               
the  Anchorage  International  Airport, planes  sitting  on  that                                                               
runway were actually  turning the asphalt when  they turned their                                                               
wheels to move.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. DESJARLAIS said  he remembers that. The top  lift was sliding                                                               
and completely  separating from the  second lift. The  runway has                                                               
now been chip-sealed with polymer modified asphalt.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS mentioned that the  committee would like to have an                                                               
asphalt summit when all of the research is complete.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DESJARLAIS agreed  and said  that they  should hold  another                                                               
summary meeting for stakeholders involved in the project.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HUGGINS asked  how much  longer the  graduate student  has                                                               
left.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. HULSEY  said that  he has  at least a  year. Lab  work should                                                               
resume in September and they should  have more faculty at the lab                                                               
at that time.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DESJARLAIS said  that the  UAF lab  could be  used to  solve                                                               
problems in mix design instead of just throwing money at them.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HUGGINS  asked about  Billy  Connor's  grant and  wondered                                                               
whether he will be using the UAF lab.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HULSEY  answered that  Mr.  Connor  has  a 5-year  grant  of                                                               
University   Transportation   Center   funding   to   bring   top                                                               
researchers in  the field  of transportation-related  problems to                                                               
Alaska, and that he will be  using the UAF lab. He commented that                                                               
the  lab is  fortunate  to have  first-rate equipment,  including                                                               
environmental   chambers  to   test  samples   in  cold   weather                                                               
conditions, but it  needs funding to keep  the equipment properly                                                               
calibrated.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. SAN  ANGELO said  that DOT  supports the  work that  is being                                                               
done on this.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS adjourned the meeting at meeting 2:55:53 PM.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                

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